My (Still Extremely Relevant) Interview With The Late PM Yitzhak Rabin. What would the Israeli leader have thought of the peace with UAE and Bahrain?

Tuesday March 29, 2022. By: Joseph Puder

By accident, I recently stumbled upon an old interview I did with the late Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin in March 1993, at the Kiriya in Tel Aviv. At the time, PM Rabin held two portfolios: that of Prime Minister and Defense Minister. As such, he preferred meeting people at the Kiriya, which is where the Defense Ministry is located. Rabin was intimately familiar and fond of his offices there, going back to his days as Chief-of-Staff of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) during the Six Day War.  

Rabin’s no-nonsense, direct manner betrayed his sensitivity toward people. And, although direct and biting at times, his responses appeared genuine, revealing a true commitment to his beliefs. PM Rabin looked much younger than his age at that time (71), his ruddy cheeks said to be a result of his disciplined drinking (whiskey was his favorite). Some people considered PM Rabin as having a cool demeanor. I found him to be a superb conversationalist, and certainly not aloof.  

Following a short description of my radio talk show program – The American Mideast Forum on W-MCA New York City, home of the legendary host Barry Farber, we then ended the chit chat and I began our interview.  

Joseph Puder (JP): Mr. Prime Minister, do you believe that the Jewish settlements in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza are assets or liabilities?  

Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin: First, let me say that my preference is to see Israel as a Jewish, democratic state, living in peace and security. Also, I do not want to swallow as part of Israel 1.8 million Palestinians. The annexation of the territories outright, as the Likud proposes in its vision of Greater Israel is also the annexation of 1.8 million Palestinians, and that would make Israel a bi-national state. Therefore, realizing that the Palestinians in the territories are a distinct national entity politically, religiously, and ethnically, I do not want them to be part of Israel. Anyway, they would reject the idea, and we would have to impose ourselves upon them.

Secondly, by no means am I ready to withdraw to the pre-Six Day War lines EVEN IN THE CONTEXT OF PEACE. A diplomatic peace is not yet real peace; it is an essential step in the peace process leading toward a real peace. There will be, however, a long lapse of time between the signing of peace treaties, or the diplomatic peace, and the onset of real peace, a peace that the average man on the street will consider as peace. In the time gap between diplomatic and real peace, we need defensible borders. Even though I do not want to absorb 1.8 million Palestinians and the territory on which they live, I want to make clear a few things: First, Jerusalem and its surroundings must remain united under Israeli sovereignty and our capital forever. Second, I want the Jordan River to be the defense line of Israel…  

JP: Do you mean the Jordan River or the Jordan Valley?  

PM Rabin: I mean both the River and the Valley. I am also referring to the Eastern slopes of the Samarian-Judean hills. As you know, the area is sparsely populated by Palestinians.  

JP: I believe, Mr. Rabin, that this was in essence the Allon Plan?  

PM Rabin: Yes, it is basically the Allon Plan. And thirdly, to continue where I left off, even in the context of peace, I will not go down from the Golan Heights, as far as peace with Syria is concerned. Therefore, on one hand, I oppose the position of the Likud and the Right Wing parties demanding all of the land. The question for me is not “territory for peace,” but rather maintaining an Israel that is at least 80% Jewish, and democratic. I do not want to see an Israel with a third of its population being Palestinian. Since I believe that Judaism and racism are in contradiction with one another, I reject the transfer of the Palestinians or an “apartheid” like situation of denying them equal rights.  

JP: If somebody was to tell you that the demographic time bomb that Yasser Arafat promised will not materialize because of the massive Jewish Aliyah from the former Soviet Union, would that settle the demographic question?  

PM Rabin: I never believed in the demographic issue. Everyone knows that since 1967, the basic demographic ratio within what used to be British Mandatory Palestine has not changed. Let us assume that another million Soviet Jews will are added on – it would still leave a third of the population being Palestinian.  

JP: Mr. Prime Minister, do you believe that peace with the Arab states is possible given their social, political, and economic system; can you make peace with dictatorships in the long run?  

PM Rabin: It will require first a change in the Arab society throughout the Arab world, and the achievement of a democratic system similar to the one in America, Europe, and Israel. For that we will have to wait fifty to one hundred years. In the coming thirty years there will be no peace. I believe, however, that peace is attainable regardless of the Arab mentality, society, or government.  

JP: Do you mean a peace that is no war or real peace?  

PM Rabin: That is why I said earlier that I distinguish between a diplomatic peace, or a peace treaty, and a real peace which means: the disappearance of hate, suspicion, and prejudice that has accumulated on both sides. This is why even in the context of a diplomatic peace (peace treaty), I would seek defensible boundaries. This is because I am aware of signing peace treaties with Arab countries that have no democracies and that there can be quick changes of policies, attitudes, and governments… At the same time, I also know that without diplomatic peace there can be no real peace.  

When I visit with German or French leaders, I ask them how long it took them to achieve real peace. Some of them would say 150 years, others said 300…to assume, however, that once we sign a peace treaty there would be no threat from the Arab states in the future would be a mistake.  

JP: If real peace is to reign in the region, and between Israel and its Arab neighbors, would it not require democratic institutions to emerge, and do you see any on the horizon?  

PM Rabin: I believe that you can sign a peace treaty with all the neighboring countries except Lebanon. It includes Syria, Jordan, and even the Palestinians. It will however be a diplomatic peace, and won’t be a “love affair.” And as you know, in international affairs you cannot find love. I also believe that a guarantee of any peace agreement will require a strong IDF and defensive borders. I remember once asking the former Secretary of State Dean Rusk (when I was ambassador to Washington), “what is the value of international agreements?” He replied: “It isn’t worth the paper it is written on unless it is backed by the kind of force that will make the other side consider the penalties too heavy to break the agreement.”  

In September 1993, Israel and the Palestinians signed the Oslo Accords and the following year peace with Jordan. Yitzhak Rabin would be have been amazed by the 2020 Abraham Accords between Israel, Bahrain, United Arab Emirates, Morocco, and Sudan. At this time, it seems that peace with Bahrain and the UAE is the closest thing to a “love affair.” It is a warm peace, unlike the one with Egypt and Jordan. The Arab world though, still awaits the emergence of genuine democratic institutions.